Showing posts with label atheist. Show all posts
Showing posts with label atheist. Show all posts

Thursday, 7 July 2022

Michael Brown's Questions for Atheists

 Evangelical Christian Michael Brown recently posed several questions to atheists. These were framed as an 'honest' attempt to understand atheists.

I have provided my answers below.

Is Your Atheism Based on Study or Experience?

First, would you say that you are (or, were) an atheist based primarily on intellectual study or based on experience? Or did you never believe in God at all?

I have never believed in your deity, or any other deities. I am old enough to be exposed to the arguments for the existence of your deity, and found the answers ranging from unconvincing, to fallacious, to downright dishonest.  

 

Do You Have Purpose and Destiny?

Second, would you say that even as an atheist, you still have a sense of purpose and destiny in your life, a feeling that you were put here for a reason and that you have a mission to accomplish? Or is it primarily people of faith who feel like this, since we are simply the products of an unguided, random evolutionary process?

Your leading question with evolution in it, belies your claim to honesty. The powerful and well-researched forces of evolution are not a synonym for random. I have a purpose, and it is a product of my own worldview and my indigenous culture. For example, kaitiakitanga drives the work I do in wildlife conservation, and affirms that I share a kinship (whakapapa) with all these animals. This is part of the legacy I leave for the future. 

The Christian idea my purpose is to end up, joyfully spending an eternity kissing your deity's butt while my unsaved friends and whānau are being tortured, actually fills me with utter disgust and horror. 


Does God Exist?

Third, would you say that you are 100% sure there is no such being as God — meaning, an eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing being? Or would you say that, for all practical purposes you have concluded that this God does not exist, although it is impossible to prove such a negative with absolute certainty?

I have concluded that deities are an outgrowth of our hunter-gatherer animistic beliefs, that evolved into focus points of these, first as nature gods and in some cultures, gradually evolving into High Gods and finally, Morally High Gods. Your deity is a very recent, in human terms, species of Moralising High God. Gods don't exist. They are the fantastic creations of the ancient era.

Can Science Explain the Origin of Life?

Fourth, do you believe that science can provide answers for many of the remaining mysteries of the universe, including: how the universe began (including where matter came from and where the Big Bang derived its energy); the origin of life; and DNA coding?

That's an odd question. Research on the origin of life has advanced from showing some early chemical pathways for amino acids to form in the 1950s, to peptide chains (proteins), sugars, nucleotides, lipid membranes and protocells, and self-replicating macromolecules today. The explanation is incomplete but much more powerful than the idea a virgin-mating bloodgod did it instead.

What science gives us is the most reliable method we have for discovering how things work. It does so by setting up ruthless contests between competing hypotheses, that are resolved by seeing which are wrong (falsification). Theistic claims that knowledge can be acquired instead by revelation is patently false, and the fact you simply have no reliable way to tell if your beliefs on origins are false, rule out your alternative explanations.

Have You Questioned Your Atheism?

Fifth, have you had any experiences in life that caused you to question your atheism? Has something happened to you that seemed genuinely supernatural or otherworldly? Or have you been confronted with some information that shook your atheistic foundations, such as a scientific argument for intelligent design? If so, how have you dealt with such doubts about your atheism?

No. The longer I live, the more confident I am in my atheism and the more appalled I am at the damage generated by your religion.  And there are no scientific arguments for intelligent design. What we have instead is a litany of falsehoods about genetics, molecular biology, statistics and the fossil record concocted by a small cadre of glib zealots. They have undertaken no original research to establish ID as a science. If anything Creationists (including Intelligent Design proponents) confirm how unscrupulous, how dishonest and untrustworthy your arguments are. I don't think you appreciate how badly Creationism discredits the your religion. 

Are You Materialistic?

Sixth, are you completely materialistic in your mindset, meaning, human beings are entirely physical, human consciousness is an illusion, and there is no spiritual realm of any kind? Or are you superstitious, reading horoscopes or engaging in new age practices or the like?

That's such a list of leading questions I'm not even going to bother answering it.  

Would You Be Willing to Follow God?

Seventh, if you were convinced that God truly existed — meaning the God of the Bible, who is perfect in every way, full of justice and mercy, our Creator and our Redeemer — would that be good news or bad news? And would you be willing to follow Him and honor Him if He were truly God?

If you could convince me the Abrahamic deity existed, I would accept it existed. The god of the Bible however, gave its followers instructions for beating slaves or executing non-virgin brides, but none for using soap. It promotes collective and inherited guilt, blood sacrifices and scapegoating, thought-crimes and threatens horrific torture with no chance of rehabilitation. That's not what a perfect or just entity looks like. 

 

Monday, 30 May 2022

Cold-case Christianty: Review

Introduction

Popular apologetics has been around for a long time. The most popular of such apologists have found a unique selling-point that let them rise above the rest. For Lee Strobel it was the "former-atheist investigative-reporter" angle. For Frank Turek, it was the "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" angle, still being milked today.

Recently a new entrant in this genre appeared. This is the J. Warner Wallace  "investigative detective" angle with his book Cold-Case Christianity. This asserts that the tools of criminal investigation can be applied to the Canonical Gospels and New Testament (NT) to determine they're completely reliable accounts of Jesus' life. Rather convenient really, as it means you don't need to study the society, languages, beliefs and culture of the Roman world and its Eastern Mediterranean provinces. While this hasn't convinced a lot of experts in the Ancient Near East, it has persuaded a lot of internet Christians. Usually of the evangelical flavour. And at times atheists are assured that this book will provide the evidence we have been craving to show that Christianity is true. 

So, in response to the belief that Cold-Case Christianity does provide compelling evidence for their deity, and to show I'm willing to read this stuff, I've written the following review. 

Note that this is just a review and not a point by point rebuttal. I don't have time for that.  

So what about this detecting approach?

This is wildly oversold by Wallace. What we really get is a lot of filler (the anecdotes from his past) which is best skimmed over, and some distillation of what he claims are key detecting principles. Unfortunately these are not at all insightful. It's just a matter of trying to avoid presuppositions, analysing all the evidence and reaching conclusions based on these. There is nothing here that being a Cold-case detective brings that is novel. This book is a triumph of marketing over substance.

Instead, what Wallace does is collect a lot of popular apologetic arguments and tries to link each to one of the detecting principles he's concocted. That's pretty much it. It's a litany of the same poor popular apologetics arguments we've seen many times before. 

Wallace is not even consistent with the principles he espouses. The whole premise that witness accounts from a modern Western country are analogous to the theological literature from an ancient era is is one giant presupposition Wallace never addresses. In the first century, Judaea was populated by a largely illiterate population for whom politics, culture and religion were all one, who were chafing under Roman rule, and who expected a Messiah to appear and rescue them. This is a culture that depended on oral records and anything they wrote would have been through a theological lens. 

Presuming these records would be similar to modern witness statements is a massive leap. If you're not convinced ancient and modern literature are comparable then Wallace's approach is wrong, all the way down. This is exacerbated by the fact we don't have the original crime scenes sic. Our earliest NT manuscripts are from the 2nd century, and these are both few in number and fragmentary.  

Wallace quickly demonstrates the lack of rigour in his approach. The first is how he deals with contradictions. Contradictions always support his belief that the Canonical Gospels are eyewitness accounts. There is no level or number of contradictions that will ever budge his belief. Yet there has to be some trigger point, some number, where the credibility of the accounts is seriously diminished by the contradictions. 

One of the events that is plagued with contradictions is the account of the crucifixion and resurrection. A horizontal reading of the texts shows they contradict on the day of the arrest, when the women visited the tomb, which women visited the tomb, if the women visited the tomb (1 Cor. 15 vs the Gospels), what was seen at the tomb (and that's even if we restrict ourselves to the Canonical gospels), what they did after the discovery and where Jesus later appeared to his disciples. For the single most important event in Early Christianity, dismissing these contradictions as the kind we expect to see in eyewitness accounts is stretching credulousness to its breaking point.  

Wallace can only see the NT literature as either deliberate efforts at deceit, or delusions or describing actual events. Thus he never allows for an alternative theological motivation or the accretion of legendary elements over decades of different oral traditions in different groups of Early Christians. He's mired in presuppositions and an attempt to contort the evidence to match his view the NT is largely eyewitness accounts. 

A second important weakness is his ad hoc 'scene-artefacts' to explain away material not consistent with his view. Thus the errant cigarette butt at a crime scene is analogous to say, the later addition of the story of the adulterer in John. His principle is simply that if you feel something is out of place, it is. This has enough wriggle room to sail a cruise ship through. What's to stop say, someone concluding the dead rising from their graves in Matthew is an artefact? Or the 500 eye-witnesses Paul claims to have seen the risen Jesus? There is none. There is no rigour to this principle as it is simply an ad hoc means for Wallace to dispense with many arguments against the reliability of the Gospels.  Others however could use it to dispense with any details Wallace relies upon, as it seems to them it is also out of place. History needs better standards than this. 

The third weakness is his claimed skill in forensic statement analysis are grossly inflated. Wallace never picks up for instance, that the style of writing and the topics of interest changes, in the many epistles regarded as pseudepigrapha. That is, they are fakes attributed to one of the original apostles by the writer. He never picks up the Gospel of John's Jesus differed in many significant ways from the Synoptics. 

He never picks up that Mark makes regular and creative use of irony in his account [1]. Or that Mark employs many Latinisms that a native speaker from Judaea is unlikely to use. Mark includes Latin words like κῆνσος (census or poll tax), λεγιών (legion), κεντυρίων (centurion), δηνάριονb (denarius), units of measure such as μόδιος (modius), and ξέστης (pitcher) and legal terms such as σπεκουλάτωρ (executioner) and φραγελλόω (to flog) [2]. And this list is not exhaustive. There are also geographical mistakes in the Gospel of Mark (7:31- the journey to Galilee through Sidon). Or even that Mark has Jesus quote Psalm 22:1 as his final words. Instead he claims its what an early eyewitness account would look like. 

In other words, all the things that actual NT scholars use to analyse the Gospels is absent from Wallace's approach. Wallace fails to identify problems with the text that are widely known. He cannot distinguish pseudepigrapha from genuine epistles. He promotes Intelligent Design pseudoscience and rejects evolution (Chapter 3). This does not support Wallace's claim to be skilled at analysing evidence. 

Addressing the Skeptics

The purported goal of apologetics to give good arguments to counter skeptic objections to Christianity. Wallace makes a big deal of being a former atheist and skeptic who was eventually won over. So how well does Wallace address skeptic arguments. 

Curiously, Wallace seems to be an odd former atheist. Allegedly familiar with the works of Ehrman and the like, but claims he thought the Canonical Gospels were of a second-century origin when he was an atheist! And there is an odd thing about the sceptic arguments he takes on. A lot of these, like 'the swoon theory' to explain Jesus' escape from the cross, aren't very popular. Other arguments, such as why we think the Gospels were composed at a much later date are barely touched on at all. This would be understandable coming from a Christian apologist who was never a committed atheist. Their framework often doesn't understand what are considered the most trenchant criticisms. It is really odd however, for a former atheist. 

Similarly, for a former atheist he reveals in Chapter 3 he lacked a rudimentary understanding of evolution and big-bang cosmology. He dispenses with 150 years of research in biology by quote-mining Dawkins to imply Dawkins agrees design occurs in nature. This is the exact opposite of what Dawkins argues. So Wallace not only fails to address skeptic and scientific arguments for why we are unconvinced a deity is behind the Big Bang or the diversity of life on the planet, he establishes a shocking level of dishonesty with his quote mine.  

Now let's consider the dating of the Gospels. Setting aside the academic debate on some aspects, it is (generally) accepted that Mark was composed first (around 65-70 CE), Luke and Matthew about a decade later, and John in the last decade of the first C. These are composed in fluent Koine Greek, not Aramaic, by highly literate writers. In short, the very people the original disciples were not. 

Wallace argues that Luke should precede Paul's letters (so mid 40s CE) and Mark should be even earlier still, because Luke had some dependence on Mark. So how does Wallace deal with the arguments for the later dating? Mark is dated to 65-70 CE because Iraneus says it was composed after Paul and Peter had died (c65 CE). It describes the political milieu of this era- themes of suffering, persecution and martyrdom and alludes to the Jewish War that broke out in 67 CE.

 Wallace's counter is to just ignore Iraneus and the political context of the passages in the gospels. He accuses others of a bias against supernatural explanations and that Mark, really had prophesied the siege of Jerusalem. So he does not deal with skeptical objections at all. Rather he sets up a strawman. He argues scholars concluded Mark was from 65-70 CE  because the authors are anonymous (true, but irrelevant) and have a naturalism bias. 

Luke's date is based on the extraordinary assertion that Paul, clearly showed he was familiar with Luke. Paul's letters are largely the only NT documents that can be reliably dated. This argument depends on a short proverb of little theological import, and a shared reference to a common liturgical practice. This flies in the face of genuine scholarship, which wonders why Paul comes across as so unfamiliar with the Gospels. But you don't need to be a scholar to figure this out. Just try to reconstruct the main elements of Luke, using just the letters of Paul. You can't. There is no virgin birth, no healing miracles, no feeding of the thousands, no clearing of the Temple, no parables, no empty tomb, no women who discovered the tomb first etc. 

So Wallace not only fails to establish his alternative time line has credence, he betrays a lack of awareness of the arguments and evidence for the actual dating. 

So what about that resurrection?

The purpose of trying to shift the gospels as close as possible to the crucifixion, and assert they are eye-witness accounts, is to inflate the authority of the Canonical gospels. This in turns makes the central argument of Christianity, that Jesus was resurrected after his death, more compelling. After all, if all we had were first and second century non-biblical sources and early Christian sources like Paul's letters, the Gospel Jesus would vanish. There are no contemporaneous non-biblical accounts of the Gospel Jesus. Unlike say Julius Caesar or Cicero, Jesus appeared to have written nothing for others to read. We would have no way of reconstituting the fantastic events of the Gospels solely using other sources in this era. So apologists have to go 'all in' on the Gospels being accounts that are based in actual history. Needless to say, Wallace presents nothing that would convince a skeptic that the gospels are eyewitness accounts and have an early date. 

We are left with the resurrection, and if Wallace cannot convince us it is a real event, then there is no reason to accept this occurred. As your common, garden-variety skeptic I would agree, that assuming Jesus existed, some of his earliest followers believed he was resurrected soon after his execution. But I do not think it really happened. 

Wallace tries to establish the credibility of the miraculous resurrection by asserting the 'minimal facts' as our starting point. Conveniently, this bypasses the skeptical arguments against the 'minimal facts'! 

For instance, I'm not convinced there was an empty tomb. The empty tomb isn't mentioned in any E Christian literature preceding the Gospels, which were composed decades later. For such an important detail to be not mentioned across thousands of written words and 3 to 4 decades, is extremely suspicious. The four decades from the crucifixion to Luke and Matthew is long enough for this embellishment to be added and accepted. We can see such embellishments continued, as in the Gospel of Peter from early 2nd C, who included giants and an animated, talking cross in his resurrection account.

However unlikely one feels that Jesus being left on the Cross (as was the common if not universal Roman practice) was, or put into a communal grave pit, these are still plausible alternatives. Both would ensure there was no body and conveniently, help establish the legend of the empty tomb.

We can at least, agree that several of his closest followers soon after, believed they had seen a resurrected Jesus. And that motivated them to continue resume their proselytising, and they were after Paul joined them, recruit into Gentile communities effectively also. 

I tend to the view that these early followers experienced grief hallucinations. This view has a number of proponents, including the late NT scholar Gerd Lüdemann. Grief hallucinations are fairly common phenomenon among people who suffer a loss (I'm one of them).  Auditory and even visual hallucinations of the deceased person are reported. These can be quite vivid but decline over time. This matches the overall progression of these resurrection appearances, which also fade away. 

As an aside, epileptic seizures can also produce vivid religious experiences[3]. The very non-corporeal experience reported by Paul (mimicking a seizure) suggests early Christians were open to visionary, rather than physical appearances of Jesus. 

Wallace however, does not consider the way grief can generate these hallucinations and jumps to the mass appearances (e.g. 1 Cor 15) to refute the hallucination argument. Unfortunately Paul's epistle First Corinthians makes more problems for Wallace's mass-hallucination rebuttal than he acknowledges. The first is that it contradicts the Gospel accounts by having no appearances to any women first. The second is the 500 witnesses are problematic. Nowhere else does anyone describe an appearance to 500 people. What event, if it occurred, is a puzzle [4]. 

And of course, the only way we can accept this mass appearance is to believe that either Paul is telling the truth or that it wasn't a corruption of the text by a later copyist. So in the end, an event that we do not know the location or time of, or who was present, and is possibly a later edit [4], is not the slam dunk against the hallucination explanation Wallace desires. A skeptic is after all, skeptical. 

So for the skeptic, Wallace's arguments against an hallucination explanation appear inept, and further ignores the role of memory distortion. We know that people misremember traumatic events. We are good at adding details to the story later that we think occurred as the following excerpts show. 

Crombag et al. led participants to believe they had seen the moment an El Al Boeing 747 crashed into an apartment building, killing 43 people. Although there was no film of the crash, there was considerable media coverage of the aftermath. Indeed, participants often elaborated on the original suggestion (e.g., the plane was already burning when it crashed). Importantly, and in line with the SMF, Crombag et al. opined that traumatic events might be more susceptible to memory distortion than benign events because they typically provide more avenues for mental imagery...
...Southwick et al. asked Desert Storm veterans at 1 month and 2 years after their return from service, whether certain events occurred during that service (e.g., sniper fire). They found 88% of veterans changed their response to at least one event; 61% changed more than one. Importantly, the majority of those changes were from “no, that did not happen to me” to “yes, that happened to me,” what has been termed “memory amplification.” -Strange and Takarangi (2015) [5]

This has nothing to do with dishonesty but how the mind works. Some early followers would have been shocked by the arrest and execution of Jesus, and there is no reason to suppose they would be immune to memory distortion.  Grief hallucinations get misremembered. They become more vivid, more physical, and more details are added. And in an era where oral transmission was largely used to spread Christianity, those accounts that were more wondrous, more attention-arresting, would have been selected for. And grief hallucinations that evolve into physical appearances are explicable both in terms of memory distortion and oral retelling. 

In the end, the fundamental problem with relying upon the Gospels is that the case for the physical resurrection becomes a circular argument. The Gospels have to be used to prove the (contradictory) accounts of the resurrection in the Gospels are true. There is no other way we can get to the Gospel resurrection claims without them. We can't get to it through other early Christian or non-Christian writing. 

Early Christian Motivation

When Jesus died he left no instructions or guidance to his followers on doctrine. He'd left nothing in writing to use as an authority. There was no hierarchical Church structure where leaders got together to work through the problems. Early Christian groups ended up being a very diverse bunch. We only need to look at Paul's letters. He reveals he has points of difference with other original leaders (who seemed to see Christianity as a sect within Judaism), and his letters often have the theme of correcting what he considered, where wrong interpretations emerging in the Churches he helped establish. 

By the time we get to Iraneus in the Second Century, we have 21 sects that he classes as heretical (this does not account for any that disappeared in say the Roman-Jewish wars in the late 60s and again in the 132 CE). These sects professed doctrines at odds with the view Wallace and others are trying to propagate. Gnostic Christians for instance (and there were multiple branches of these) held that the earthly world was corrupt, that Jesus was the manifestation of a spiritual being and Yaweh was not the true god but a malevolent deity [6]. The first chapter of John's Gospel which includes the words on logos, is suspiciously Gnostic in its perspective. We have many more Gospels than just the four the bible preserves and the Gospel of Peter I mentioned above. Orthodox Christianity with all its doctrines and structures did not spring into being in the first days of Christianity. It emerged after many decades in a contest with rival Christianities. 

It is this background that we need to understand the motivation of the early Christian apostles and early Christian literature. And all of this is absent from Wallace. Rather, he gives the impression that Christianity emerges in its near mature form soon after Jesus' death. Instead he argues that the Apostles and Gospel writers had no motivation to lie or mislead others.

We see the tedious appeal to martyrdom that is common in popular apologetics. The Apostles were willing to die for their beliefs, and did so without recanting, when recanting would have saved their lives. Hence we are told, the apostles were telling the truth about what they witnessed. Obviously this would still hold in the grief-hallucination/memory distortion scenario also. But a closer examination of the martyrdoms of Apostles shows that the opportunity for recanting was not an escape from their executions. James was executed for breaking the law (cf. Josephus). Peter and Paul, who disappeared in Rome around the time of Nero's persecution, would have been executed (if they were) as scapegoats for starting Rome's disastrous fire. Saying they had made up the resurrection story would not have saved them. Outside dubious later Church tradition, we really know nothing about the other disciples. 

The restricted set of motives Wallace employed excludes the theological motivation of the writers. It ignore the theological conflicts the early Christian Church had to work through. And it places a lot of credence on the writings of the early Christians. How do we know the Paul suffered great hardships establishing his Churches? Because Paul tells us so in his writings. Can we verify this? No. And given the horrendous numbers of abuse cases modern Christian leaders have kept from their followers, it would be an heroic assumption that such covert sexual predation was not occurring then. Paul may have been a really virtuous guy, but to rely upon his own writings to establish this, is as smart as using Ravi Zacharias' apologetics to establish he wasn't a vile rapist. It's not likely Paul would be confessing to such crimes in his epistles. Wallace is back to the circular strategy of using the NT to prove the NT. 

Within the first 100 years of Christianity, many Christian groups did not share the orthodox beliefs captured in the Canonical gospels. For orthodox Christians, the value of the gospels was not their historical truth. It was what they saw as their theological truth. John for instance, moves the arrest of Jesus forward by one day. The theological motivation was clear, by doing this before the Passover, it ensured the doctrine that Jesus died for "our sins" as the Passover lamb was established. Wallace however doesn't see this as deliberate, but the kind of mistake an eyewitness would make. 

For a culture who saw everything through a theological lens (unlike modern secular societies), this theological truth is what ultimately mattered. The NT Gospels, the epistles, and even the pseudepigrapha had value, not because they were historically true. They had value because they were theologically true. They established the 'correct' version of Christianity. That is why using them as largely historical accounts twists the goals of the original writers to conform to the far removed, modern orthodox Christianity.  

Conclusion

Wallace fails to see that there was a theological motivation for the Gospels, and the canonical ones were selected because they supported the view of Christianity that became orthodoxy. He fails to consider this because of a profound lack of understanding of how ancient societies differed from modern. Of how ancient literature was composed. 

His claim to have examined the evidence critically is not supported by this book. Rather he takes such a credulous approach to popular apologetic arguments, that I feel he'd find evidence for the resurrection on the cooking instructions of a packet of soup. 

And in the end, his approach shows it cannot honestly represent science, philosophy or history. It conveniently confirms a whole bunch of popular apologetics arguments and does not properly address the objections to them. I imagine Wallace will continue to be popular in evangelical Christian circles, but he has nothing that will persuade a moderately well-informed sceptic he is correct.


References


[1] Fenton, J. C. (2001). Mark’s gospel -- the oldest and the best? Theology, 104(818), 83–93.

[2] Latinisms are described in Incigneri, Brian J. The Gospel to the Romans: The Setting and Rhetoric of Mark’s Gospel. Biblical Interpretation 65. Leiden: Brill, 2003


[3] Devinsky O, Lai G. Spirituality and religion in epilepsy. Epilepsy Behav. 2008 May;12(4):636-43. doi: 10.1016/j.yebeh.2007.11.011. Epub 2008 Jan 2. PMID: 18171635.

"Several case reports and small series document religious or mystical experiences during partial seizures [30], [38], [39], [40]. The nature of ictal religious seizures varies, including intense emotions of God’s presence, the sense of being connected to the infinite [37], hallucinations of God’s voice [30], the visual hallucination of a religious figure [17], as well as clairvoyance and telepathy, or repetition of a religious phrase [40]..."

[4] Ftizmeyer (2008), First Corinthians.  https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300140446/first-corinthians/

[5] Strange D, Takarangi MK. Memory distortion for traumatic events: the role of mental imagery. Front Psychiatry. 2015 Feb 23;6:27. doi: 10.3389/fpsyt.2015.00027. PMID: 25755646; PMCID: PMC4337233.


[6] A good introduction to the Gnostics is this BBC Religion Podcast discussing it. 

Wednesday, 29 November 2017

Atheism and the meaning of life

I had a recent conversation on Twitter with a Christian on whether my life has meaning.  Many such theists seem to believe that life can have no meaning for atheists.  The fact that we can be out there, enjoying life and the experiences it offers, seems impossible for some to grasp.

Problem 1: The Permanence Assertion


The first problem is that argument is built on an assertion. The assertion is that an experience has to be permanent for it to have meaning.  The assertion is never proven, it is obstinately accepted by fiat by the theist.  Yet, I know that holding my daughter the moment she was born, was an extremely meaningful experience. It still provokes a powerful reaction in me. That eventually I'll be dead, does not alter the fact that I felt something real, that it did have meaning for me. It doesn't have to be a permanent experience to have meaning.

If I don't have the belief that permanence is a prerequisite for meaning, it's not enough to keep repeating that assertion. You need to produce a strong argument, not insults, to establish it.  I've never heard such an argument.

Problem 2: An eternal afterlife makes this life meaningless


This can be established by comparing the different outcomes under different assumptions about an afterlife.

Lets suppose however, that each experience in Heaven gives a payoff of B, you average an annual level of happiness of b when you're alive in the mortal realm, and that each torment in Hell gives you a payoff of -H. With Heaven being superior to this life, and Hell being worse, let's simply say the B > b > -H.

Both Heaven and Hell are eternal, and thus provide you with an infinite benefit (or harm) stream.
Hence the actual payoff to being in heaven is ∞B and the payoff to being in hell is ∞(-H). With these being infinite streams, then the B and and -H is not really relevant. Heaven has an infinitely positive good payoff, Hell an infinitely negative payoff.  This is largely the logic behind Pascal's Wager. In that wager doesn't matter how unlikely you think Christianity is true, you will always win by being a Christian (or feigning being one).  The size of the payoff completely dominates the probabilities.

Your earthly existence, assuming you generally enjoyed life, has a payoff of tb, where t is the number of years you lived.  This has to be finite. Nobody is immortal.

So the ratio of payoffs of of your mortal life to heaven is tb/∞, or zero (0). In short, your mortal life is such a tiny fraction of your total existence that all your earthly experiences vanish to nothingness. You may as well shuffle off to the afterlife as fast as you can.

If we change the assumptions to an atheist one, then there is no afterlife. All the afterlife payoffs drop to zero. Which means the ratio of payoffs to a mortal life, to the after life, is tb/0. With denominator being 0, the ratio is ∞.  In short, every experience now is of profound value when we recognise its finite. The only way life can have meaning, is if it is finite in nature.

Problem 3: the Omniscience Dilemma


It gets worse if the deity is omniscient (all-knowing) as is attributed to the Abrahamic god Yaweh. Now its not just short, finite life you face that produces meaningless. Because this deity knew before you were born, where you would end up after death. If you're Hell-bound, because say you voted for Hillary Clinton or had some gay friends, Yaweh knows you can't change anything to escape Hell. You'll exist for an insignfiicant fraction of time, before suffering horrible torture. The same argument applies to heaven. Life isn't really a test if your deity already knows you're going to pass and get to Heaven. What possible meaning can life have, if there's not a single thing you can change to avoid your eternal fate?

Summary


The argument atheists can have no meaning to their life is not based on rational deliberation. I suspect rather, it's based on being intimidated by mortality and hoping a pact with an ancient god will allow the theist to escape this. People do derive however, meaning from their lives in varied ways. Living according to the values of some ancient Near Eastern pastoralists doesn't really satisfy the goals of all.  Indeed, I'm surprised anyone finds it satisfying.






Thursday, 25 May 2017

On the side of the angels?

Or, a closer look at Morality

One of the popular arguments for deities (specifically the Abrahamic god) is based on morality.  This has always surprised me.  The argument that our morality is derived from this deity seems absurd.  The idea that we'd get morality from an ancient blood-god that commanded and committed genocide, seems, well, beyond ridiculous.  It's way out there in cloud-cuckoo land.

Nonetheless, it merits a deeper response. Many theists seem fond of it. I'm even accused of borrowing my morals from Christianity (rolls eyes).  One assumes if I was to borrow my morals from some other belief system, it wouldn't be one with a body-count as high as Christianity. Or Islam.

The argument roughly is that humans have objective morals, objective morals can only come from gods that need living creatures killed to deter its retribution, therefore this god exists.

1. Objective or Subjective Morals?

 The first problem is that a false dichotomy is created with morals. Borrowing from axiology (philosophy of values) it is asserted that locus of morality is either the object, or the subject.  If morality is objective, all the subject need do is recognise what is moral in that case. Morality is external to the subject.

If morality is subjective, the subject applies their values to the relevant case. It is thus the subject that determines if something is moral.  Morality is internal to the subject.

The crucial difference is that we would not disagree on what is moral, it it is objective.  It can't change. It's a property of that case.  We can only disagree if morals are subjective.

This however, is not the only way morals could be classed.  We could also distinguish that is authoritarian, and that which is rational.  The challenge for theists is explaining why their morality is objective, rather than authoritarian.

Let's illustrate. The bible contains the edict to kill witches. Exodus 22:18 - "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".  For centuries, thousands and thousands of people were killed by Christians for witchcraft. It continues in some parts of the world.  It is a merciless and cruel act, tragically based on a fictional crime.



It's clearly not an application of a subjective, or rational, moral philosophy.  If the only option is objective, then it must be the objectively moral thing to do.  It is also vile and repugnant. In truth, it is not objective. It is authoritarian. And for most of Christianity's history, it was also the right thing to do.  So, no, I don't borrow my morals from Christianity!

2. Do Objective Morals Exist?

What would it take to show that morals are objective?  This requires finding a moral rule that we agree is moral, but is inexplicable by other means.  I can conceive of a minimum of two tests.

a) The Evolutionary Test

Evolutionary biology provides several mechanisms to account for why humans would adopt rules and behaviours we would class as moral.  These include kin-selection and reciprocal altruism.  In addition, some behaviours can be Evolutionary Stable Strategies.  Their evolutionary advantages make them stable and are selected for in successful societies.

Parental care is easily explained by kin-selection mechanisms.  Charity toward others also appears to be an ESS.  Early human societies would have suffered from a lot of food variance.  Being willing to sharing food acts like an insurance policy for all. An unwillingness to share would be punished by others refusing to share. This would hurt the selfish during times they suffered food shortages.

In short, we expect certain rules and behaviours to be selected for because they are evolutionary stable or advantageous.  They benefited humans, in the communities they lived in.

b) The Rawlsian Contractarian Test

Rawls is not an explicit Contractarian. Rather he is a hypothetical Contractarian.  Whether a rule is moral or not, can be evaluated rationally by all parties. If the parties agree on the rule, it can be considered moral.  To prompt rational consideration, Rawls uses the veil of ignorance.  Nobody knows whether they will be the victim of such a rule, or a benefactor.  This ignorance forces everyone to consider everyone.

Hence, a Contractarian would argue that say, killing people for witchcraft or owning blacks as slaves, is immoral.  The parties would not agree such acts are moral out of concern they could be victimised by the rule.

This makes Contractarian rules, neither purely subjective nor objective. It makes moral rules a rational product of human societies.

c) Do such rules exist?

There are many Christian rules that fail the tests above.  The problem is they're also immoral.  Whether it is the public execution of non-virgin brides, or the killing of Sabbath stick-gatherers, they don't appear moral.

3. Objective Morals Don't Exist

The morality argument fails on its first premise. Objective morals don't appear to exist.  What is considered moral changes.  Our attitude to slavery has changed, in many parts of the world, so has attitudes to divorce, gay marriage, women's suffrage and capital punishment.  Applying the brutal and authoritarian morality of the slave-owners of the biblical era would get you arrested today.

These changes in morality are more consistent with an explicit Contractarian moral philosophy.  We debate what is moral. We try to consider the welfare effects not on us, but others. And what was once moral, like slavery, becomes immoral. What was once immoral, like homosexuality, is no longer.

4. Conclusion

The argument that the Abrahamic god is the source of our moral sense is ridiculous. It relies on a false dichotomy between objective and subjective morals. It confuses authoritarian, or evolutionary stable rules, as objective morals.  And it turns a blind eye to the atrocities undertaken, and commanded by the Abrahamic god.



Wednesday, 17 May 2017

Index: Brave Christians

I read and debunked SJ Thomason's (aka @lead1225 on twitter) "Brave Christian" argument for god, so you don't have to

Basically, it ignores contemporaneous martyrdom in other Jewish sects, provides a very low body count of early Christians, ignores natural explanations of Paul's vision and conflates an historic Jesus with the gospel Jesus.

The long versions:
Part 1: Not a fan of Carrier

Part 2: Will the brave Christians standup?

Thursday, 11 May 2017

Death and Legend in Judea

Introduction


Well, Easter has come and gone again.  That seems to be a good time to talk about the resurrection. Because many Christians have been talking about it.  How else can we explain the empty tomb if Jesus wasn't magically resurrected via the power of an ancient bloodgod? It's the only explanation that makes sense! (rolls eyes)

The problem with the question is its loaded nature.  The empty tomb is presented as a fact. This has some major credibility problems.


Problem 1: Timing


The empty tomb isn't used as proof of Jesus' divinity and resurrection until we get to the gospels.  The  (genuine) letters we have from Paul do not mention it. Nor is it present in other early NT letters.  For something that's supposed to convince us all that Jesus was divine and resurrected, its absence for decades in early Christianity literature is astonishing.

The gospels are generally reckoned to be written after Jerusalem was besieged by the Romans (70 CE) because they're not referenced in earlier Christian documents. Paul seems completely unaware of them.  And prophecies of Jerusalem being sacked are always easier to make after the event...

The sequence for the gospels is usually reckoned as Mark, followed by Luke and Matthew, and finally John.  This spans around 30-40 years.  And all are long after the alleged event. The gap between when the empty tomb alleged occurred and when it's first mentioned is extraordinarily large.

Edit: this alone persuades me that the empty tomb was a later contrivance.  

Problem 2: Inconsistencies


Despite the synoptic gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke) patently using the same sources, they can't keep the empty tomb story straight. Throw in John and it gets worse.  The number of women who went to the tomb, when they went, what they saw at the tomb, what they did afterward, whether they were believed or not are all inconsistent across the gospels.

The Apologist gambit is to assert that this is what we expect with eye-witness accounts.  No. It's consistent with a bunch of people who didn't balk at making things up to sell their religion.


Edit: the women are not the only inconsistency of course. E.g. Matthew has guards and a seal that everyone else seems to forget. The accounts are more what we'd expect with oral traditions and attempts to establish the orthodoxy or early doctrines over several decades.

Problem 3: It conflicts with Roman practice


As far as we can tell Romans did not normally allow crucified victims to get buried in tombs. Crassus left thousands of ex-slaves rotting on crosses after the suppression of the Slave revolt.  Normally crucified victims were left aloft to be picked clean by birds and the like.  

To be buried, and buried ceremoniously instead of in a common pit, is a deviation that begs for explanation.   


Edit: this is the weakest objection I have, and one that Richard Carrier has explained to my satisfaction. It is highly likely Romans allowed the locals to maintain their traditional burial practices. 

Problem 4: Joseph of Arimathea


It has always struck me how much of a Deus ex Machina Joseph plays.  In order to get Jesus from the cross, into a tomb and in the time available, requires a very powerful and capable character.  There's nobody in the disciples capable of pulling this off.

Enter Joseph.  He fixes all the problems with the plot.  First, he's politically powerful.  He's part of the council that condemned Jesus.  But like all superhero fiction, he has a secret identity.  He's also a disciple of Jesus.  He's influential enough to persuade Pilate to take the body off the cross.  He's also rich.  This is also necessary for the plot.  They have to buy linen cloth and 100 pounds of myrrh and aloe that evening.  He's also already got a tomb ready.   Every plot-hole (bar one) is immediately fixed.  Evening might be approaching when he asked Pilate for the body, but Jesus is lying in a shroud, in a tomb, with a stone covering the entrance in time for his resurrection. Phew!

The remaining plot hole of course, is there isn't enough time to get this all done in the time available. 

Joseph's appearance in the story is dramatic.  He's not mentioned in the gospels before this.  And he disappears just as dramatically. He's never mentioned again.  He's not mentioned in Acts, he's not mentioned in any of the letters preceding the gospels.  Paul, Peter and James have no recollection of him at all. He's a powerful and connected guy with massive influence, and nobody mentions him?! Amazing.  

Joseph only has one job.  He appears at exactly the right time to fill in a bunch of critical plot-holes, and then disappears.  He has the traits of a literary invention that appears decades later when the empty tomb story gets added to the Jesus legend- not the traits of an historic person. 

Edit: Even the locale of Arimathea appears made up. 

(If you want a much deeper analysis of Joseph of Arimathea, I recommend John Loftus' blog).


Conclusion


I don't feel that I need to explain the empty tomb, because I don't think there was one.  Early Christendom was plagued with doctrinal problems.  Hints of this are preserved in the letters of Paul, James and others.  This also created a range of heretical sects, such as the Arians.  

The gospels weren't written to be histories.  They were written to convince people that Jesus was the Messiah and of divine origin.  And by drawing on the authority of Jesus and the early disciples, they could be used to resolve doctrinal disputes.  Was the resurrection a mostly spiritual personal visionary event?  Or was it a physical event?  For anyone who believed in a physical resurrection, the canonical Gospels make a perfect argument. And they get more elaborate the later the gospel is composed. It's the last gospel, John, that introduces Thomas as the clincher for the physical resurrection. 

So either major scientific laws were broken to miraculously bring the offspring of an ancient god and virgin back to life.  Or the belief that the resurrection was a physical event evolved slowly in a community that was willing to add embellishments that showed this, in retelling, over decades.  It's not really difficult deciding what's the least plausible.





Saturday, 8 April 2017

Are we there yet? SJT tries to find some brave Christians

Part 2: Are we there yet?


The Short Version

SJT quotes a lot of secondary sources to claim persecutions were common, still only comes up with Nero's persecution in Rome in 64 CE, makes some stuff up (Christianity was illegal until Constantine) and provides a pitiful body-count to support her early Christians were brave claim.


Long Version 

SJT: Carrier’s blog opines that the apostles “died for a vision.” He then proceeds to refer to a debate he had with Bass, stating that “He couldn’t even establish that they could have avoided their deaths by recanting. Or even that what they died for was their belief in the resurrection, rather than their moral vision for society, or (I could have added) some other belief they wouldn’t recant—such as their already-Jewish refusal to worship pagan gods, the only thing Pliny really ever killed Christians for (the resurrection was never even at issue); and that’s the only explicitly eyewitness account we have of any Christians being killed for anything in the whole first hundred years of the religion. (my emphasis added)”
As reported by Wawro (2008) in the Historical Atlas, the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus reported that “Nero punished Christians for their role in the April 64 CE fire in Rome’s Circus Maximus using the following means:
  • He had them covered with animal skins and let them be eaten by dogs.
  • He had them nailed to crosses.
  • He had them burned as torches for light after sundown” (Wawro, 2008, page 85)
1. Tacitus was born in the provinces in 56 or 57 CE.  He wasn't an eyewitness. And these Christians were killed as scapegoats.  So Carrier's reasoning is sound, recanting wouldn't have done a thing. So you have one persecution, from Rome, in 64 CE. Which is about 30 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus.  I'm dubious a lot of the converts there witnessed the resurrection decades earlier in Jerusalem.

SJT: In Tacitus Annals 15,44, Tacitus states “Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dross of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car.”
2. Carrier is still correct. Tacitus is not explicitly an eyewitness.  Recanting would have not saved them as they were scapegoats.  They weren't killed for believing in the resurrection, but the claim they started they fire in Rome.  

The major flaw in your argument is you cannot identify any early Christians who 'witnessed the resurrection' sic who were killed by Nero.  Which is going to be hard because it is 30 years later and a long way from Jerusalem. 


Irrelevant: “Despite persecutions for the next 150 years, the new Christian Church spread into France, Spain, North Africa, and Mesopotamia. The once small sect devoted to Jesus Christ grew to between 5 and 6 million by 300 CE. By 350 CE, the number of Christians in the Roman Empire was over 33 million, and Christianity had become a universal religion” (Wawro 2008, page 85). 
SJT: In other words, between 5 and 6 million Christians were willing to worship Jesus illegally in the first few hundred years following Jesus’ resurrection. In 312 AD, Constantine had a vision of a Christian symbol, which led to a battle victory and the legalization of Christianity, ending the persecutions of early Christians.
3. And now you're just lying. Christianity was only illegal briefly during the reign of Valerian over 200 years later than the alleged resurrection. One brief persecution in Rome under Nero does not mean Christianity was illegal up to Constantine. Most of your 5-6 million Christians would never have witnessed the resurrection either.  They would have lived in the wrong time period, or the wrong location.  

Does it seem reasonable to determine that millions of early Christians would risk their lives by worshipping illegally to follow a “vision” or “hallucination” by a tentmaker named Paul?
4. If they knew it was an hallucination, sure, that'd be unreasonable. If they thought it was a genuine religious experience- such as you do- why not?  And you have failed completely, to show that it was a risky religion to belong to.  Josephus doesn't mention anything about them being persecuted and he's pretty good at covering Jewish sects between 35 and 70 CE.  Now the Zealots. That was dangerous to belong to. The body count at Masada alone seemed much higher than anything described in Acts. 

It took over 30 years after the alleged crucifixion before Nero decided to persecute some Christians in Rome (and there's no evidence that this went wider than Rome).  That's pretty good compared to the regular religious violence recorded in Josephus in Judea. 
SJT: Additionally, Paul’s supposed hallucination did not include the gospel accounts of Jesus and accounts of the many miracles He performed, including the Resurrection.
5. Bingo. His hallucination didn't include any corroborating detail about the gospel Jesus.  Like the gospel Jesus never existed... 

It is the miracles, including the Resurrection, which drove Christians to risk their lives.
6. 1 Corinthians, written by Paul decades before the gospels were compiled, has this little nugget
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom...
Somehow Paul was oblivious to the signs the Jews wanted?  No fulfilled prophecies?  No miracles?  The gospels are full of them. Yet he doesn't tell people people to believe because of miracles.  

You still haven't shown it was a risky religion to belong to. 

SJT: Paul’s supposed vision, or hallucination, of a celestial Jesus obviously excluded same.
Below I’ve listed some of Jesus’ miracles:
8. This is so boring.  These aren't actual facts you can use. These are what early Christians came to believe.  The fact there is no corroborating extra-biblical evidence for these miracles, and Paul earlier seemed unaware of them, ruins their credibility.  That and the fact they're impossible!  The gospels were written decades later than the alleged life of Jesus.  That's plenty of time for various legends and myths to be promoted and adopted as 'true' by the time the gospels were composed.  
  1. Jesus turns water into wine (John 2:1-12)
  1. Jesus heals an official’s son without going to see the boy (John 4:46-54).
  1. Jesus heals a crippled man on the Sabbath (John 5:1-17).
  1. Jesus feeds 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fish (Matthew 14:19-21; Mark 6:30-34; Luke 9:10-17; John 6:1-14).
  1. Jesus walks on water (Matthew 14:22-32; Mark 6:47-52; John 6:16-21).
  1. Jesus heals a man born blind (John 9:1-41).
  1. Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).
  1. Jesus heals a bleeding woman (Matthew 9:2-7; Mark 5:25-34; Luke 8:43-48).
  1. Jesus calms a storm (Matthew 8:23-27; Mark 4:37-41; Luke 8:22-25).
  1. Jesus heals a paralyzed man (Matthew 9:2-7; Mark 2:3-12; Luke 5:18-26).
  1. Jesus resurrected from the dead (Matthew 28:5-6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24; John 20).
SJT: Additionally, does it seem reasonable that a tentmaker invent his own tale of Christianity when the rewards of crafting such a story did not exist?
9. Just because he believed he had a genuine encounter with some manifestation of Jesus, does not make this a fact.  
SJT: Paul boasted about his suffering because he truly believed in a greater purpose, which was glorifying Jesus and advancing in heaven.
10. Right, because people who start religions are so trustworthy and reliable when it comes to what they say.  Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones.  People who were as straight as an a arrow.  

You're putting a lot of faith in the words of guy who seemed oddly ignorant of much of the gospel Jesus. 
SJT: Paul suffered great peril, as documented in the books he wrote. This suffering occurred after his conversion from a Jewish persecutor of Christians to a Christian persecuted by Jews.
11. Again. So what?  If he genuinely believed his vision was the correct manifestation of Jesus, that works. 


SJT: Paul, the author of thirteen New Testament books, offers one of the most compelling stories of a transformation. Paul (known as Saul) was on the road to Damascus in his effort to identify and arrest early Christians for illegal worship. “Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me.’ ‘Who are you, Lord?’ Saul asked. ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting’ (Acts 9-1-6). Paul immediately converted to the Way and became one of its most ardent followers who was beaten, imprisoned, and eventually beheaded all in Jesus’ name.
12. You have a sample size of one! You describe an event that has a suspiciously odd similarity to a seizure. This when epileptic seizures are known to cause increased religious experience and conversions. And you've got exactly one prominent Christian killed between the alleged crucifixion and the sack of Jerusalem.  And this is a guy who could never have witnessed the resurrection.  

In 2 Corinthians 16:26-27, Paul states: “I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles, in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.” 2 Corinthians 12:10 adds: “That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” Clearly, Paul was not living an easy life once he decided to follow Jesus.
13. Again, your sample size of early Christian bravery is stuck at a sample size of one.   Even if you throw in James and Stephen (noting Stephen was a later convert who didn't witness the resurrection either), that's about one prominent Christian a decade. Only one of which, could have experienced the resurrection of Jesus. 

And speaking as someone whose field-work in conservation in developing countries has entailed a lot of that above, I'm not sure why Paul's "sacrifice" should mean anything.  At least he believed he was securing for himself a wonderful afterlife. 


SJT: As C.S. Lewis said, “I didn’t go to religion to make me ‘happy.’ I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”
14. All arguments can be improved by not quoting CS Lewis.  

SJT: Carrier points to times in history in which people have been “gullible,” thereby generalizing all gullible people into a basket of gullibles into which he throws early Christians. He implies that the gullible within the “Heaven’s Gate Cult” are similar to early Christians and that all Christians are “gullible.”
15. No, you're misrepresenting that point.  The reality is that ancient peoples who were semi-literate, had little scientific knowledge and saw the supernatural- including gods- everywhere- aren't a hard sell. Even Julius Caesar got to be a god. 

We do know that people have been willing to make enormous personal sacrifices, down to death, for their gods. Whether it is the Zealots fighting Vespasian, or the  Ismailian assassins operating out of 12th C Syria, or kamikaze pilots during World War two, or suicide bombers in the Middle East, it happens. Dying for religious beliefs is depressingly common. 

SJT:  More boring bits deleted: I agree that some people are gullible within every group, as were the adherents to atheist despots like Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Stalin, yet I would never make the assertion that the gullibility of Stalin’s  followers applies to atheists today (following Carrier’s logic that all atheists are “gullible”). I also know that the vast majority of atheists today abhor the acts of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung, so I would never throw them into a basket of atheists with Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung.Carrier states: 
“Thus countless people die for a ‘lie’ in the sense that they don’t know that what they are dying for is false. This is most obviously true for non-eyewitnesses, who die merely for trusting someone else’s word (many religions have many examples of this happening, from Mormonism to Islam to Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, and beyond). But it’s also true for “eyewitnesses,” whose own minds have lied to them. And also, of course, eyewitnesses who are being conned (and indeed many a person has been fully convinced of something that was in fact a perpetrated sham). And also witnesses who aren’t sure of what they saw, but who believe they will gain eternal life if what they saw is what they are told it was, or want it to be—convincing themselves it must be true, merely to avoid personal despair.”
Rather than dig into the psychology behind the movement of early Christians, Carrier implies that their minds have lied to them, they are following a perpetrated sham, and that the early Christians (who, again, were burned and nailed to crosses), believed to “avoid personal despair.” Other more honest atheists with whom I’ve had these conversations acknowledge that early Christians truly believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
16. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight.  Believing in the resurrection is part of the beliefs of Christianity. Becoming Christian means accepting that. It doesn't make the resurrection true, or early Christians brave.  


SJT: Early Christians weren’t merely following the hallucination of Paul. They believed Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. Jesus’ birth was predicted in the scriptures, as noted here:
17. Oh please.  You're doing that amateur apologetic thing of finding allegorical and vague verses that can be manipulated into matching the gospel Jesus.  
Isaiah 9:6 “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. stuff deleted 
SJT: Roman history books included references to Jesus, as noted here (Miller, 2007, page 346):
  1. Antiquities of the Jews, by Joseph (about 93-94). “There was a wise man who was called Jesus, and His conduct was good…Pilate condemned Him to be crucified…His disciples didn’t abandon their loyalty to Him. They reported that He appeared to them three days after His crucifixion that He was alive.”
18. This is from the Testimonium Flavianum and much of it is thought to represent later Christian editing. Note that Josephus was not an eyewitness and wrote the Antiquities nearly 60 years after the events.
He also didn't mention that the early Christians were brave, nor corroborates the miracles or the resurrection. 
  1. Annals of Imperial Rome, by Tacitus (about 55 – 120). “Christ suffered the ultimate penalty at the hands of procurator Pontius Pilate when Tiberius was emperor of Rome.”
19. The Annals were written in the early 2nd Century.  It does not corroborate the resurrection of Jesus, any miracles, or mention the conspicuous bravery sic of the early Christians. All it mentions is something early Christians already believed, which Tacitus could easily got from them.  
  1. The Lives of the Caesars, by Suetonius (about 70-130). “Chrestus caused the riots in Rome in AD 49. This is probably a reference to Christ and to the hostility that erupted when traditional Jews clashed with Jews who believed Jesus was the promised Messiah. Acts 18:2 supports this theory, reporting that Claudius Caesar expelled all Jews from Rome during this time.
20. This is very vague. You have to equate Chrestus with Christ, and overlook that he's being described as still alive.  Still no corroboration of the gospel Jesus, resurrection or bravery of E Christians. 


Carrier goes on to state that “it’s also possible for people to die for what they know is a lie.”
Yes, this is possible if the death were unexpected, yet for Carrier to suggest that early Christians, whom either expected or acknowledged the possibility of death, beatings, or imprisonment, knew in their minds that what they were doing was in vain obliterates any rational theories of human behavior and psychology.
21. Wow, what a Strawman Argument.  Here's a simple concept. Early Christians believed they same way you and other Christians believe. They were told a story and they bought it.  They didn't believe because they personally witnessed anything. They believed because conversion tactics in that period worked.
  1. People of sound minds make decisions that maximize their outcomes.
  2. People of sound minds weigh benefits against drawbacks when making decisions.
22. And as Pascal's Wager reminds us, Christianity is supposed to generate an enormous benefit for belief in the afterlife, and a horrific cost if they don't. 
  1. Early Christians wanted to maximize their chances of going to heaven by following Jesus.
23. And martyrdom pretty much gives you an automatic pass into heaven.
  1. Early Christians weighed the benefits of going to heaven and following Jesus against the risks of imprisonment and death.
24. So one on side, we have an infinite eternal benefit stream, and on the other a fairly trivial risk of death and persecution. That pretty much ensures the Benefit-Cost ratio is all on the joining Christianity side. 
  1. Had early Christians determined the risks outweighed the benefits (and considered it all a lie), they would have recanted their testimonies in support of Jesus.
25. Where do you get that anyone thinks they all knew it was a lie?  I thought Carrier argued the basis of Paul's belief was an hallucination, not lied. 

“In the centuries that followed, the believers in Jesus, called Christians, braved horrible persecution to found communities across the Roman Empire” (Belt, 2014).

26. And another secondary source.  That actually lists zero persecutions. Here's an idea. The reason the early church grew quite happily, is they weren't persecuted by and large.  They were tolerated. Christians didn't start insurrections. They paid their taxes.  They weren't worth the effort of persecution. 

Carrier then questions whether saints such as Peter, Jesus half-brother James, Stephen were (1) martyred and if they indeed were martyred, he questions whether they (2) were martyred for what they believed or for what they saw.
27. And Carrier's criticisms stands. He addressed your concerns below.


According to the Antiquities of the Jews, written around Flavius Josephus mentions the death by stoning the brother of James the Just, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”
28. Problematic because both James and Jesus were pretty common names, no identification is made with the early Church- other than the disputed "who was called Christ" passage.  It's thought this likely an later Christian edit as Josephus, as a non-Christian Jew, would not have given out this title.  Nor as Carrier explains, was the motive for the death sentence clear-cut.


According to Acts 12:2, King Herod put the apostle James to death with the sword.
29. Herod reigned from 41-44 CE.  So we've gone about a decade since the alleged crucifixion before James has been killed. 
According to Acts 7:55-58, Stephen was stoned. “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’ At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city, and began to stone him.”
30. Not exactly a story brimming with credibility. It has a lot of fantastic elements and an amazing tolerance for a hostile crowd to listen to a lengthy diatribe, that gets recorded at an amazing level of detail to be written years later.

This is even if we assume that Acts is a credible source in the first place.  Which SJT has not established. 

Other accounts of the deaths of the disciples are based on tradition. The most commonly accepted traditions are as follows: (https://www.gotquestions.org/apostles-die.html unless otherwise noted).
31. Yeah, so no actual primary sources for this. Just tradition from an organisation that exploited martyrdom to market its beliefs.   

So in the end, the body count of apostles, of believers who were even present during the alleged life of the gospel Jesus, is very low. Much lower than what we'd expect for a group of people at constant risk of death, and martyred at a regular pace.  Compared to the Jewish zealots, early Christians seem to have been absolutely wimps.  The Zealots knew how to kill and die for their beliefs.  
  • Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword.
  • Bartholomew was flayed to death by a whip (Johns, 2014).
  • Andrew was crucified on an X-shaped cross in Greece. The cross is now known as the cross of St. Andrew (Johns, 2014).
  • Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India
  • Paul was tortured and beheaded by the Emperor Nero in 67 AD.
  • Peter was crucified upside-down, in fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy (John 21:18).
  • James the Lesser was either beaten or stoned to death, while praying for his attackers (Johns, 2014).
  • Philip was reportedly crucified upside-down in Hierapolis, Turkey. In 2011, archeologists in Hierapolis discovered what they believed to be Philip’s tomb (Johns, 2014).
  • Matthias reportedly preached in the “land of the cannibals” (Johns, 2014).
Though we only have traditions that offer glimpses of the specific ways that most of the early Christian disciples died, we can infer from the fact that Christianity was considered illegal

32. No, you haven't established it was illegal


 and Christians were persecuted that no matter the means by which they passed, their lives were not easy and their faith in the way, the truth, and the life was strong.
33. You have neither the body-count nor the actual attested-to persecutions to support this claim.


The disciples preached, despite the risks, because they believed that a humble carpenter is the Son of Man and Savior of the world. 
34. Believing something doesn't make it true.


Had they not seen Him resurrect, they wouldn’t have preached that He resurrected. 
35. Why not?  Neither Stephen nor Paul witnessed the resurrection.  They had no difficulty preaching it. They were persuaded it happened. In one case, probably via a seizure. 


Had they not seen Him perform miracles, they wouldn’t have preached that He performed miracles.
36. Rubbish, Paul doesn't care about the miracles. That's the line from 1 Corinthians again.  
Had they not been filled with the Holy Spirit, they would not have been so brave.
37. If risking their lives is the metric for true belief, then the Zealots are more entitled to have their faith accepted as true.  There's nothing here that marks the Early Christians exceptionally brave.
(Platitudes deleted)



“The great difficulty is to get audiences to realize that you are preaching Christianity simply because you happen to think it true.” – CS Lewis
38. What a stupid thing to say. Of course we realise you believe it is true.  

Conclusion

A lengthy and delusional polemic that hopes wild exaggeration will stand in the place of evidence and logic.